Gabe Lyons and the Next Christians

Ed Stetzer Interviews Q Founder on New Book

by Ed Stetzer

Gabe Lyons' long awaited book, The Next Christians: The Good News About the End of Christian America, releases today. Missiologist and President of LifeWay Research, Ed Stetzer (ES), recently sat down with Gabe (GL) to talk about life, mission, the book, and the future of faith. The following is an excerpt of that interview:

ES: Your subtitle suggests that "Christian America" is dead, what do you mean by that?

GL: Not too long ago, belief in the Christian God was almost assumed. Judeo-Christian principles governed the public square and anyone who challenged them were marginalized. Christian leaders were considered forces with which to be reckoned, and politicians coveted the Christian vote. That is no longer true.

The world today is increasingly pluralistic and post-Christian. Christianity is no longer the dominant religion governing the public square. Many faiths have a seat at the table. As Al Mohler said it, "The most basic contours of American culture have been altered. Clearly, there is a new narrative, a post-Christian narrative, that is animating large portions of this society." The world is also increasingly post-modern. Christian truth claims are questioned by a generation that is skeptical of statements of certainty. And, as my book UnChristian illustrated, negative perceptions about Christianity abound even as the faith's influence is slipping away and churches face-declining attendance. Taken together, it seems appropriate to say that by all objective indications and according to everything I have been observing, the ideas of "Christian America" are over.
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ES: Even though you see "Christian America" as over, you argue we shouldn't lament this development, but rather, see the opportunity for the Christian movement within it. How so?

GL: I am incredibly encouraged by what I see transpiring around us. First, we have to remember that the Christian faith always thrives under these conditions. Post-Christendom is not unlike pre-Christendom. But tangibly, I am seeing a whole generation of believers who are recovering the gospel and living transformed lives. "The next Christians" are living out their faith in the workplace and the public square in new ways. They are provoked to engage the world and creating new organizations and projects to restore the world's fallen state. These Christians are revitalizing old churches and planting new ones. If these next Christians are the future of the faith--and I believe they are--we just might be witnessing the beginning of the faith's next great expansion.
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ES: You describe a missing element of the Christian faith that "the Next Christians" have discovered, what is that?

GL: Instead of discovering something new, they've actually recovered a key understanding of the Gospel that has largely gone missing in many parts of Christian teaching and doctrine in the last century--the idea of "restoration." They believe that part of their responsibility in following Jesus is to lead lives that are prioritized around restoring broken people, systems, schools, neighborhoods, marriages and a variety of other things to reflect God's original intention for his creation. They emphasize seeing the image of God in every person they encounter, even if that person wouldn't acknowledge it. They don't only care about social good, but see that as part of a holistic faith that naturally opens the door to much deeper conversations with their friends about the meaning of life, who we are as human beings and what God's best is for his creations.
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ES: One of the things that people get concerned about when you start talking about the metanarrative of creation, fall, redemption, restoration - is that we're going to lose the gospel in some way. Can you unpack the gospel for our readers?

GL: I think we have to be clear when we're talking about the metanarrative to never lose sight of what the real good news is here: Christ's death on the cross, His payment for our sins, His resurrection - that's the genesis of the Good News. The metanarrative is what helps make that story more coherent, though. When we only talk about the fact that somebody's a sinner, that they're fallen, and we start the story there, and that through Christ they can get redemption -- and then oh, by the way, your role is to get as many people to make that decision so you can all spend the afterlife together -- it's not a very coherent story in a post-Christian setting where you have pretty intellectual people who are pretty thoughtful and well-read, and they're just not buying into something that sounds a bit fantastical. And it's not that none of that is true. It's actually all true. But it becomes way more coherent when you start the story understanding that every human being is made in the image of God and that the fall corrupted that, and that once we're redeemed through Christ we have the opportunity to help people understand that story and understand what restoration looks like in their relationship with God, their Creator, and also in relationship to the world and the work that God wants to do through the Holy Spirit's power to constantly be reconciling all things to Him in this world.
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ES: Throughout the book you give examples of Christians (or "the restorers") you believe are changing the negative perceptions and describe several characteristics that set the Next Christians apart. Can you share a few?

GL: A new generation of Christians aren't offended by the sin and corruption they encounter in the world, but rather, they are provoked to engage it. And often when they do, they don't critique the situation, they roll up their sleeves and get busy using their talent and treasure to solve it. These Christians aren't manipulated by a governing thought in many American churches that the truest mission for Christ takes place in "full-time ministry" in a local church, para church or missions opportunities. Rather, they are enthusiastically applying the good news of Jesus Christ in the places and careers to which they feel called. They believe that true mission is to bring the truth and restoration power of the gospel into the places they are already showing up. This is transforming the way the church is viewing not only its mission, but how the collective mission of the body of Christ shows up in a neighborhood, community and society as a whole.
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ES: You seem to suggest that this shift in the way Christians are engaging the world could hold the most hope for the movement in five-hundred years? Can you explain what you mean by that?

GL: This belief is inspired by the fact that the pattern of historic Christian expansion (and dramatic changes in how it expands) suggests that we are due for the next big moment. The first shift began almost five hundred years after Christ's death when the Roman empire fell and with it, Constantinian Christianity. Five hundred years later, the Great Schism of 1054 divided Roman Catholicism and the Orthodox Church. Finally, in 1517 the Reformation gave rise to Protestant Christianity. With history catching its stride, the movement seems primed for the next iteration of Christian practice.

The end of Christian America has pushed us into a new era of faith, one marked by believers possessing this restoration mindset and applying it maturely into every area of the world in which they show up. If the Great Reformation put scripture into the hands of Christians giving them direct access to Christ through his Word and their prayer life--this next shift is taking the themes of scripture beyond the pew and into every arena of public life. This new era will doubtlessly have both challenges and successes. So did the other great shifts. But the faith will survive, and I believe it will thrive so long as we keep the Gospel central in all we do.
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ES: You mentioned that as people, part of our job is to engage in restoration. When we talk about mission of the church - some are concerned about mission drift - what is the primary mission of the church and what flows out of that?

GL: The mission of the church, I think, is clear that it's to equip the saints. It's to be a place where Christians come together in terms of the meetings and the assembly of the body to be trained up, to be discipled, to be equipped, to know how to go out and do mission all the time. So additionally, the church is the connected body of Christ, working together in unison to reveal to the world who God is through the life that they're embodying. But ultimately I think the great shift is that pastoral leadership is going to have to get really good at knowing how to come alongside the people in their congregation and help them understand how the implications of the gospel play out in their vocation, in their setting - whether they're a professor, a business leader, an entrepreneur. I think that is the next phase, and that's what we're trying to do with Q.
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What do you think about Gabe's descriptions of these "next Christians?" Do you see people like this popping up in your faith community?
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Editor's Note: This is only an excerpt of the full interview, which appears on EdStetzer.com.

Comments

SKilker

I think folks are increasingly aware of the need to engage non believers wherever they are encountered in a more complete way. The church should be about the business of equiping the body to redeem all aspects of life corrupted by sin. In so doing however we must be concerned with keeping the main thing the main thing. That is, the true gospel that Jesus came to seek and save the lost must not get lost as we commit to restoring broken institutions and individuals.

My church is active in partnering with our city and non profits in ways that are beneficial to our community. As we go about these activities we are careful to explain why we are doing the things we do. We are careful not to be seen as simply nice people with a bent toward service but identify ourselves as Christ followers who understand that Christ cares for the eternal souls of all people and their physical circumstances in this world as well.

Josh Ploch

This is a great interview. What I have been feeling is not so much a death of "Christian America" but a backlash against the closed mindedness of what many churches and those in the churches have become. Over time this has produced negative feelings in those the church is trying to reach.

I think what Skilker describes and what Gabe describes "engaging" are those in the church reaching out not with a concern for what is within the church, but for a concern for what is outside the walls. I think it will take time, but it is moving in the right direction.

Mike

Great interview and excellent insights as always by Gabe. The emphasis on creation and restoration for a more comprehensive message is an needed reminder. I look forward to his timely book. One significant comment is appropriate, though. The "post-Christendom" environment does provide some opportunities which have significant parallels with the early church times. However, our situation is radically different in terms of the predisposition of contemporary people toward the Christian message. D.A. Carson expresses it well:

“There is at least one fundamental difference between Paul’s situation and ours. When Paul evangelized biblical illiterates, he is dealing with people whose heritage had not in recent centuries had anything to do with biblical religion. So when they react negatively to him, they do so solely because, from their perspective, his frame of reference is so alien to their own. They are not rejecting him in part because they are still running away from their own heritage. That is the additional problem we sometimes face. We sometimes deal with men and women who have adopted a worldview that is not only at several points profoundly antithetical to a biblical worldview but also self-consciously chosen over against that biblical worldview.”

(Carson, D.A. 1998. “Athens Revisited.” Telling the Truth: Evangelizing Postmoderns. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 391.)

This creates an additional challenge for us.

Ron Mabry

Insightful interview. Helps me say more clearly some things I have been talking about with others. One thought; "whether they're a professor, a business leader, an entrepreneur". Many of the people I am neighbor to are laborers, dysfunctional families, CNAs, food mart attendants. John 10:10b is Jesus' restoration proclamation. How do we help people without other successes in life grasp the hope of restoration? And, how do I help the people in my congregation cross the socio-economic barriers we face?

I look forward to reading your book as I look for the way those gathered in our meetings and assemblies can be equipped "to know how to go out and do mission all the time."

Trent McEntyre

Good interview and timely discussion.

It seems to me that Christians from more fundamentalist evangelical backgrounds find the shift Gabe mentions to be novel and encouraging. But I think if you come from a mainline Christian background you find this to be the normal way of avoiding the discomfort of confronting your non-Christian neighbor with the fact that she does not know God and could be going to Hell.

I don't recommend that Christians go back to the fundamentalist contra-culture posture. But I do think the Bible calls us to place our hope in a restoration that is yet to come. "When Christ who is our life is revealed, you will also be revealed with Him in glory..." (Col 3:3) We have a foretaste, a sign, the inbreaking of the kingdom. But the restoration of all creation awaits Christ's revelation.

I personally think being a restorer is way cooler than being a disciple and certainly more appreciated than being an evangelist. So, I am personally in the same boat as the people you describe. I am just not sure that is alright.

Bob Moffitt

I have just returned from South Africa where I was teaching a group of committed young Christian leaders. Most of them would agree that what Gabe Lyons is describing is not only an American phenomena but is reflective of young Christian's views in Africa as well. The young Christian leaders I met with for the last three days told me that their disciples are eager to follow Jesus but clearly not in the context of the institutional churches they know. I encouraged them to think of local church not only in terms of the institutions we most commonly think of as we reflect on the local church, but to be aware that local church can be envisioned as many as two or three intentionally meeting together to fill the functions described of local churches in the NT. If the old wine skins don't work in today's younger faith culture, this new generation of followers of Jesus may need to form new wine skins that they believe are truer to the intentions of Christ for his Body.

Bob Moffitt

Judy Bonnell

I loved your book, but I did take a little issue with your comment on churches getting on the social justice bandwagon to attract the younger generation. Our church has been doing social justice for years and it's not easy. It takes lots of prayer and perseverance! I'm 67 and am part of a group at church called world of girlfriends. We major on human trafficking and I would say that almost everyone in the group is over 50. Our leader is about 70. One advantage some older people have over the younger generation is that we may have a little more money to help. The younger people in our church may come to a meeting or two, but they often don't stick with it. Anyway, just a little different perspective from someone who loved your book.

Jonathan

Judy,

I think you've just pointed out that your church wouldn't be included in the group Gabe was referring to. I think he was referring to late-to-the-party churches who are building well and championing adoption because that's "in" right now.

Greg

The concept of engaging the culture to restore it gives everyone on earth a chance to be blessed by God's wisdom BEFORE they hear the gospel. It reminds me of this prophecy:

Isaiah 2:2-4 (New Living Translation)

2 In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house

will be the highest of all—

the most important place on earth.

It will be raised above the other hills,

and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.

3 People from many nations will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,

to the house of Jacob’s God.

There he will teach us his ways,

and we will walk in his paths.”

For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion;

his word will go out from Jerusalem.

4 The Lord will mediate between nations

and will settle international disputes.

They will hammer their swords into plowshares

and their spears into pruning hooks.

Nation will no longer fight against nation,

nor train for war anymore.

Karyn

While I admire the enthusiasm, I can't help but hear pride in the younger "new" Christians who think the old timers got it wrong. They are now going to get it right. Because the culture has become so immoral, doesn't mean the gospel or life of Godly believers have changed. Doesn't mean Christians over the last 500 years haven't been living kind lives and helping their neighbors, coworkers. Just means christian values aren't readily assumed.

Tom Eggebeen

I think the recent Judgment Day silliness by Harold Camping represents the tail-end of the story - the last gasps of an older, triumphalist, go-to-heaven, christianity that mostly hated the world, and hated those who didn't buy into it's world-view. Along with that, is the imperial christianity bent on recovering what never existed - a christian America. As these forms of christianity fade away (never entirely), there is emerging a new Christian world, one humbled in frame of mind and heart, more devoted to Scripture and its story (thanks to folks like N.T. Wright), clearer about justice (not as punishment, but as God's work to level the playing field) - fill in the low places and lower the mountains. All of these older versions were dominated by either some form of gnosticism (Harold Camping) or love of power (Huckabee and Palin). They have proved hollow and deceptive and utterly incapable of "saving" anyone. Yet God perseveres, and God's Spirit strives with our spirit, and renews the faith, the church and its mission. I've very hopeful.